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	<title>Comments on: Do galaxies care where they live?</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/</link>
	<description>The Galaxy Zoo Team Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Hanny</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Hanny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-132</guid>
		<description>Hi Steven, just read your piece. It took me a while because I thought it would be a bit over my head. However, your explanations are very clear (even for a Dutch amateur!) Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steven, just read your piece. It took me a while because I thought it would be a bit over my head. However, your explanations are very clear (even for a Dutch amateur!) Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Mark McC:  Just to note that, along with all the Zookeepers, I am a &#039;published author&#039; of a number of articles in scientific journals.  I haven&#039;t produced much for the public yet, though, which I&#039;m sure is what you meant.  Chris, on the other hand and for the few of you who don&#039;t know, is also a public communication of science guru!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark McC:  Just to note that, along with all the Zookeepers, I am a &#8216;published author&#8217; of a number of articles in scientific journals.  I haven&#8217;t produced much for the public yet, though, which I&#8217;m sure is what you meant.  Chris, on the other hand and for the few of you who don&#8217;t know, is also a public communication of science guru!</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-128</guid>
		<description>saxman:  Given you&#039;re a beginner in astronomy, but presumably at least some science background, your ideas are very good.  The simulation you suggest would give some insight, and indeed a number of similar simulations have been performed.  The approach of simulating the gravity with higher resolution than its surroundings is common.  Unfortunately the real situation is rather more complicated than you suggest and even a simple model would have to take into account more effects. 

The gravitational interactions of neighbours is indeed thought to have a significant influence on a galaxy&#039;s morphology.  However, galaxies move relative to one another, and it is the short-lived close-approaches which have the largest effect, as I&#039;m sure you can appreciate.  Motions of neighbours must therefore be included, although this is fairly simple in your framework, although to reliably simulate the effect the positions and motions of the neighbours must be realistic - not just random.

There are various other environmental effects, including mergers, gas-stripping and shocking, the gravitational interaction with the cluster&#039;s own dark matter halo, and the changing distribution of galaxy masses with environment, which could all be important in explaining the observed trends.  I&#039;ll give more of a description of these mechanisms in a future post.

Finally, accurately simulating the evolution of just one galaxy, whether isolated or in a group, is currently well beyond our capabilities.  The complex interplay between environment, galaxies, gas, star formation and active galactic nuclei, spans such a wide range of scales, easily a factor of a million, that the processes can not be followed consistently.  Simplified models can, however, give us an understanding of some of the processes involved, and we can constrain the roles of some mechanisms by comparing with observations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>saxman:  Given you&#8217;re a beginner in astronomy, but presumably at least some science background, your ideas are very good.  The simulation you suggest would give some insight, and indeed a number of similar simulations have been performed.  The approach of simulating the gravity with higher resolution than its surroundings is common.  Unfortunately the real situation is rather more complicated than you suggest and even a simple model would have to take into account more effects. </p>
<p>The gravitational interactions of neighbours is indeed thought to have a significant influence on a galaxy&#8217;s morphology.  However, galaxies move relative to one another, and it is the short-lived close-approaches which have the largest effect, as I&#8217;m sure you can appreciate.  Motions of neighbours must therefore be included, although this is fairly simple in your framework, although to reliably simulate the effect the positions and motions of the neighbours must be realistic &#8211; not just random.</p>
<p>There are various other environmental effects, including mergers, gas-stripping and shocking, the gravitational interaction with the cluster&#8217;s own dark matter halo, and the changing distribution of galaxy masses with environment, which could all be important in explaining the observed trends.  I&#8217;ll give more of a description of these mechanisms in a future post.</p>
<p>Finally, accurately simulating the evolution of just one galaxy, whether isolated or in a group, is currently well beyond our capabilities.  The complex interplay between environment, galaxies, gas, star formation and active galactic nuclei, spans such a wide range of scales, easily a factor of a million, that the processes can not be followed consistently.  Simplified models can, however, give us an understanding of some of the processes involved, and we can constrain the roles of some mechanisms by comparing with observations.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark McC</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark McC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-120</guid>
		<description>Hi Steven. 
Thanks for taking the time to write such great descriptions. Its fascinating reading even if I haven&#039;t taken it all in yet and I agree with all the positive comments above.
Make sure you save them to a file and you will be a published author on galaxy descriptions in no time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Steven.<br />
Thanks for taking the time to write such great descriptions. Its fascinating reading even if I haven&#8217;t taken it all in yet and I agree with all the positive comments above.<br />
Make sure you save them to a file and you will be a published author on galaxy descriptions in no time.</p>
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		<title>By: starry nite</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>starry nite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-119</guid>
		<description>Hello, Steven. Thanks for the post; this blog is great! I&#039;m an amateur, but my guess is that lenticulars have a more defined edge because they are still spinning, which keeps the stars (or most of them) within a rough boundary. My thought is that when the rotation of a spiral slows, the arms lose definition and &quot;fuzz&quot; into a lenticular or ring. That&#039;s assuming that there are no interactions with other objects or inherent instability that causes the spiral to fly apart first. On that subject, I think also that there may be more loose stars and clouds in inter-galactic space than is assumed currently. I&#039;ve seen a lot of irregulars and spirals losing bits and pieces, and that stuff isn&#039;t going to get incorporated into other galaxies until their paths cross.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Steven. Thanks for the post; this blog is great! I&#8217;m an amateur, but my guess is that lenticulars have a more defined edge because they are still spinning, which keeps the stars (or most of them) within a rough boundary. My thought is that when the rotation of a spiral slows, the arms lose definition and &#8220;fuzz&#8221; into a lenticular or ring. That&#8217;s assuming that there are no interactions with other objects or inherent instability that causes the spiral to fly apart first. On that subject, I think also that there may be more loose stars and clouds in inter-galactic space than is assumed currently. I&#8217;ve seen a lot of irregulars and spirals losing bits and pieces, and that stuff isn&#8217;t going to get incorporated into other galaxies until their paths cross.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Lawton</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Lawton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-117</guid>
		<description>Thanks for summing some results! That&#039;s one reason I classify.  To see the results.  There&#039;s nothing like an organized slope, that makes me feel like something was accomplished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for summing some results! That&#8217;s one reason I classify.  To see the results.  There&#8217;s nothing like an organized slope, that makes me feel like something was accomplished.</p>
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		<title>By: saxman</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>saxman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-115</guid>
		<description>thanx a lot for the really good article!

i&#039;m a beginner to astronomy too, but might add my thoughts to the topic. please ignore, if it&#039;s too stupid! :-) (also i apologize for the bad english)

i agree with jim - the obvious difference between the two environments (dense / lesser dense regions of space) is the gravitational layout:

within an &quot;isolated&quot; galaxy the main sources of gravity seem to be the features of this very galaxy: 
- the central bulge, usually with its big black hole in the center, binds the stars to the center
- the masses of the single stars influence their imediate neighborhood - but &quot;level out&quot; themselfs over the galaxy as a whole
- due to rotation of the system (=galaxy) we get this forces to form a disc of arms.

why? well, if i remember correctly from school physics, the gravitational (pulling) force is proportional to 1/r^2, meaning it reduces by the distance squared. (radius 1 ~ gravity 1, r=2 ~ g=.25,  r=10 ~ g=.001 etc.) plainly spoken: you feel the gravity of nearby objects overproportionally strong. so 
- local clusterings within a galaxy will attract more nearby stars to &quot;gather together&quot;
- the massive center will bind those to itself
(other organizing features, like star formation, gas clouds, novae etc. i will ignore, because this reply is about gravity)
(i skip the issue of dark matter here, but get to it later)

what happens, if we add some galaxies around?
well - distant galaxies have an influence on the galaxy as a whole, but either
- just &quot;a slight pull&quot; (remember the 1/r^2) to this or that direction, if the galaxies summed gravity is stronger in that direction, or
- a general &quot;fluff up&quot; of the galaxy, if the summed gravity is evenly distributed
but the influence will increase if the surrounding galaxies are closer. and especially the seemingly small irregularities in the &quot;gravitational matrix/layout&quot; will get greater importance. (same reason: 1/r^2, but this time r gets smaller -&gt; g gets overproportionally larger)

what you could do is creating a small mathematical simulation of this gravity field/matrix/layout/how-ever-we-call-it:
 - a galaxy consists of ~ 10^7..10^13 solar masses, radius ~ 10^2..10^6ly (both roughly values) 
 - lets take a medium one, say 10^10 s.mass by 10^4ly radius 
 - form a matrix/grid of mesuring points within 3D, doesn&#039;t have to be that fine - 100x100x100 points should be enough for a start
 - implement a rotation algorithm in one plane as a simple shifting of the values to the next grid in the direction of rotation (speed ~ 225km/s), stepping 10^1..10^3 y
 - fill grid with the distribution of stars (populate the x/y plane and lets say planes 49..51 of the z axis), pre-form central bulge (of course in the z-axis, too) and some spiral arms
 - calculate the gravity influences in all 3 directions for each rotation step and each of the grid points (skipping empty cells)
 - transform the matrix by the resulting movement vector (circulation and gravitational pull)
 - for otical study you can color code the points regarding the z part (like green: local gravity dominates, no z pull / red: z pull upwards / blue: z pull downwards) but thats just gimmicks - you only need the numbers
- then add a wider grid for the surrounding galaxies (lets say also 100x100x100 points over a larger space), where each galaxy is a single grid point
- implement a random fill alorithm for the second grid (within rational parameters of course)
- let the galaxy rotate for a while (some hundred million years)
- determine, if the z space populates (&quot;elliptical&quot;) or not (and if the general structure remains intact) - &quot;spiral&quot;
- save the outcome together with the neighborhood scenario
- repeat for different random neighborhood scenarios
you should come up with something like &quot;a lot of near galaxies -&gt; more likely elliptical&quot;

to finetune the system you then can add some &quot;self made dark matter&quot; ;-) 
- as a means to preserve the general structure (like an offset for the central galaxy&#039;s gravity field) 
and 
- to match the systems outcome with reality:

if the simulation suggests, that the influence of the neighboring galaxies &quot;kicks in&quot; too late (=close), extend the offset field. this should &quot;feel&quot; the other galaxies gravitational pull sooner (as dark matter is influenced by gravity) and by deforming should transmit the effects to the central galaxy.

or may be you (or someone else) has already done that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanx a lot for the really good article!</p>
<p>i&#8217;m a beginner to astronomy too, but might add my thoughts to the topic. please ignore, if it&#8217;s too stupid! <img src='http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  (also i apologize for the bad english)</p>
<p>i agree with jim &#8211; the obvious difference between the two environments (dense / lesser dense regions of space) is the gravitational layout:</p>
<p>within an &#8220;isolated&#8221; galaxy the main sources of gravity seem to be the features of this very galaxy:<br />
- the central bulge, usually with its big black hole in the center, binds the stars to the center<br />
- the masses of the single stars influence their imediate neighborhood &#8211; but &#8220;level out&#8221; themselfs over the galaxy as a whole<br />
- due to rotation of the system (=galaxy) we get this forces to form a disc of arms.</p>
<p>why? well, if i remember correctly from school physics, the gravitational (pulling) force is proportional to 1/r^2, meaning it reduces by the distance squared. (radius 1 ~ gravity 1, r=2 ~ g=.25,  r=10 ~ g=.001 etc.) plainly spoken: you feel the gravity of nearby objects overproportionally strong. so<br />
- local clusterings within a galaxy will attract more nearby stars to &#8220;gather together&#8221;<br />
- the massive center will bind those to itself<br />
(other organizing features, like star formation, gas clouds, novae etc. i will ignore, because this reply is about gravity)<br />
(i skip the issue of dark matter here, but get to it later)</p>
<p>what happens, if we add some galaxies around?<br />
well &#8211; distant galaxies have an influence on the galaxy as a whole, but either<br />
- just &#8220;a slight pull&#8221; (remember the 1/r^2) to this or that direction, if the galaxies summed gravity is stronger in that direction, or<br />
- a general &#8220;fluff up&#8221; of the galaxy, if the summed gravity is evenly distributed<br />
but the influence will increase if the surrounding galaxies are closer. and especially the seemingly small irregularities in the &#8220;gravitational matrix/layout&#8221; will get greater importance. (same reason: 1/r^2, but this time r gets smaller -&gt; g gets overproportionally larger)</p>
<p>what you could do is creating a small mathematical simulation of this gravity field/matrix/layout/how-ever-we-call-it:<br />
 &#8211; a galaxy consists of ~ 10^7..10^13 solar masses, radius ~ 10^2..10^6ly (both roughly values)<br />
 &#8211; lets take a medium one, say 10^10 s.mass by 10^4ly radius<br />
 &#8211; form a matrix/grid of mesuring points within 3D, doesn&#8217;t have to be that fine &#8211; 100&#215;100x100 points should be enough for a start<br />
 &#8211; implement a rotation algorithm in one plane as a simple shifting of the values to the next grid in the direction of rotation (speed ~ 225km/s), stepping 10^1..10^3 y<br />
 &#8211; fill grid with the distribution of stars (populate the x/y plane and lets say planes 49..51 of the z axis), pre-form central bulge (of course in the z-axis, too) and some spiral arms<br />
 &#8211; calculate the gravity influences in all 3 directions for each rotation step and each of the grid points (skipping empty cells)<br />
 &#8211; transform the matrix by the resulting movement vector (circulation and gravitational pull)<br />
 &#8211; for otical study you can color code the points regarding the z part (like green: local gravity dominates, no z pull / red: z pull upwards / blue: z pull downwards) but thats just gimmicks &#8211; you only need the numbers<br />
- then add a wider grid for the surrounding galaxies (lets say also 100&#215;100x100 points over a larger space), where each galaxy is a single grid point<br />
- implement a random fill alorithm for the second grid (within rational parameters of course)<br />
- let the galaxy rotate for a while (some hundred million years)<br />
- determine, if the z space populates (&#8221;elliptical&#8221;) or not (and if the general structure remains intact) &#8211; &#8220;spiral&#8221;<br />
- save the outcome together with the neighborhood scenario<br />
- repeat for different random neighborhood scenarios<br />
you should come up with something like &#8220;a lot of near galaxies -&gt; more likely elliptical&#8221;</p>
<p>to finetune the system you then can add some &#8220;self made dark matter&#8221; <img src='http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
- as a means to preserve the general structure (like an offset for the central galaxy&#8217;s gravity field)<br />
and<br />
- to match the systems outcome with reality:</p>
<p>if the simulation suggests, that the influence of the neighboring galaxies &#8220;kicks in&#8221; too late (=close), extend the offset field. this should &#8220;feel&#8221; the other galaxies gravitational pull sooner (as dark matter is influenced by gravity) and by deforming should transmit the effects to the central galaxy.</p>
<p>or may be you (or someone else) has already done that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steven</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-109</guid>
		<description>Well, Polly, that is quite a big question!  To answer it properly would take more space than a blog post, never mind a comment.

Very, very briefly: all these things can be measured, although it can be difficult!

You can find lots of information about galaxy astronomy at http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/astro/ and about the SDSS survey in particular at http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/sdss/

In fact, those links are so useful, I&#039;ll add them to the list on the blog menu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Polly, that is quite a big question!  To answer it properly would take more space than a blog post, never mind a comment.</p>
<p>Very, very briefly: all these things can be measured, although it can be difficult!</p>
<p>You can find lots of information about galaxy astronomy at <a href="http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/astro/" rel="nofollow">http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/astro/</a> and about the SDSS survey in particular at <a href="http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/sdss/" rel="nofollow">http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/sdss/</a></p>
<p>In fact, those links are so useful, I&#8217;ll add them to the list on the blog menu.</p>
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		<title>By: Polly Wilson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Polly Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-107</guid>
		<description>I am also a beginner at all this astronomy stuff, but it has truly caught my attention.  I do understand &#039;biscuits&#039;, the US equivalent to cookies, preferably chocolate chip, and am occasionally guilty of hoarding a few myself.  Due to hungry kids and husband.  I have seen quite a few lenticular galaxies in photos that I classified as ellipticals, but thought that wasn&#039;t quite the right place to put them.  So, I was happy to read that I wasn&#039;t the only one to notice the sort of the same but different type of galaxy, since I would not have been brave enough to write in and try to describe it.

Question:  The photos of the elliptical looks very much the same, fuzzy balls.  How are sizes, distances, or number of stars involved in these galaxies be determined, or can they not be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also a beginner at all this astronomy stuff, but it has truly caught my attention.  I do understand &#8216;biscuits&#8217;, the US equivalent to cookies, preferably chocolate chip, and am occasionally guilty of hoarding a few myself.  Due to hungry kids and husband.  I have seen quite a few lenticular galaxies in photos that I classified as ellipticals, but thought that wasn&#8217;t quite the right place to put them.  So, I was happy to read that I wasn&#8217;t the only one to notice the sort of the same but different type of galaxy, since I would not have been brave enough to write in and try to describe it.</p>
<p>Question:  The photos of the elliptical looks very much the same, fuzzy balls.  How are sizes, distances, or number of stars involved in these galaxies be determined, or can they not be?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Primus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.zooniverse.org/galaxyzoo/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Primus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/21/morphology_environment_1/#comment-103</guid>
		<description>Thanks for informative &amp; interesting piece ; I can&#039;t remember the last time I read an article that made reference to &quot;the biscuit hoarding characteristics of different galaxies&quot;. Great stuff!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for informative &amp; interesting piece ; I can&#8217;t remember the last time I read an article that made reference to &#8220;the biscuit hoarding characteristics of different galaxies&#8221;. Great stuff!</p>
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